Subject: Roman artifact in Mexico (was: those corncobs in India From: firstname.lastname@example.org (Yuri Kuchinsky) Date: 1997/06/07 Message-ID: <email@example.com> Newsgroups: sci.archaeology,sci.archaeology.mesoamerican,sci.skeptic GKeyes6988 (firstname.lastname@example.org) wrote: : Yuri wrote: : >Greg, : : >You forget that there're dozens of Old World artifacts that have been : >suggested as evidence of contact. The problem with them is that few have : >been found in controlled excavations by professional archaeologists. : > And : >yet we even have this. The Roman statue found by Garcia Payon in the : 1930s : >in a tomb in Mexico is one such. Even Peter van Rossum admitted it looks : >quite solid... I still have that post by Peter and can repost it if you : >wish. : If you wish -- I missed this one. ... Why don't you just : give me the reference, and I'll check it myself? I'll save you the work, Greg -- AND will provide a ref. The post from your good friend Peter van Rossum follows. : >And this find proves my other point exactly. It was not published for a : >great long time. And when it was published, it was _against the will_ of : >the archaeologist! : : Gosh, I thought you never asserted this sort of thing. If so, how can : this be your point? Could your memory be that short, Greg? Weren't we talking very recently about stuff being found by archaeologists and not published? : >So, you can't have it both ways. : >If you're looking for such a proof, then : >_really look for it_ : : Why don't YOU really look for it? Odds are, you are funded as well -- if : not better --than I am. And where did you get _this_ from? Is this some conspiracy theory of yours? I'm an independent researcher and writer, and certainly have no surplus of funds. The relevant part of Peter's old post follows. [begin quote] Subject: Re: Smoking guns? Yes (or maybe NO) From: email@example.com (Peter van Rossum) Date: 1996/12/10 Message-Id: <pmv100.119.32ACE695@psu.edu> ... 4. The Roman terra-cotta head Discussed in a TWO-PAGE article by Heine Geldern (1967), also in a TWO-PAGE article by the original excavator Jose Garcia Payon (1961) [Yuri adds on June 7: I believe this chronology of Peter's is either not quite correct, or incomplete. I have read somewhere recently that Heine-Geldern learned about this find, got in touch with Payon, and published the information about this find _against the will_ of Payon originally. Later, Payon published it too, and confirmed the find. So Heine-Geldern had to "prod him" into publishing. This matter is somewhat tangential, and it would take me some time and effort to track down more details about this chronology, but the source where I read about this was quite reliable, as I remember.] This artifact, is a 2.0-2.5 CM. terra-cotta head purported to be of Roman style in a 12th century A.D. Mexican burial. [CORRECTED MARCH 19, 2000: This artifact has been discussed a lot recently in newsgroups. Peter's info was not correct here. The actual date is 1476-1510 as Mr. Weller reminded me so helpfully. For more info, see, http://www.dallasobserver.com/issues/1999-08-26/feature2.html ] This is the best candidate of the bunch because it was found during an actual archaeological excavation and the lead excavator says it was found in a good pre-columbian context. But I still have reservations because the artifact was recovered in the 1930s but Dr. Garcia Payon never wrote anything about it until 30 years later, and even then he only wrote the briefest of articles. This makes it extremely difficult to judge the validity of the artifact. What was the size of the unit dug? By what levels was the unit dug? Dr. Garcia Payon mentions that it was found under three later floor levels but since he hasn't published the materials we can't see the stratigraphic profiles. The artifact in question only measures about 1 inch around (small), this increases the chances of problems. ... Heine-Geldern, Robert 1967 "A Roman Find from Pre-Columbian Mexico," Anthropological Journal of Canada, Vol. 5, No. 4, pp.21-22. [end quote] Also, I believe that the dating of this artifact was confirmed further. So, here you are, Greg. You raised the question of these "smoking guns" again, so you must be interested... And we have been through this in detail. I gave Peter originally a whole list of such potential "smoking guns" and from this list this one was the most solid. Regards, Yuri. Yuri Kuchinsky | "Where there is the Tree of Knowledge, there -=- | is always Paradise: so say the most ancient in Toronto | and the most modern serpents." F. Nietzsche ----- my webpage is for now at: http://www.io.org/~yuku ----- _________________________________________________________________Click here to go one level up in the directory.