Subject:      Roman artifact in Mexico (was: those corncobs in India
From: (Yuri Kuchinsky)
Date:         1997/06/07
Message-ID:   <5nc1bf$d2u$>
Newsgroups:   sci.archaeology,sci.archaeology.mesoamerican,sci.skeptic

GKeyes6988 ([22] wrote:
: Yuri wrote:

: >Greg, : : >You forget that there're dozens of Old World artifacts that
have been : >suggested as evidence of contact. The problem with them is
that few have : >been found in controlled excavations by professional
archaeologists. : > And : >yet we even have this. The Roman statue found
by Garcia Payon in the : 1930s : >in a tomb in Mexico is one such. Even
Peter van Rossum admitted it looks : >quite solid... I still have that
post by Peter and can repost it if you : >wish.

: If you wish -- I missed this one. ...  Why don't you just
: give me the reference, and I'll check it myself?

I'll save you the work, Greg -- AND will provide a ref. The post from your
good friend Peter van Rossum follows.

: >And this find proves my other point exactly. It was not published for a
: >great long time. And when it was published, it was _against the will_ of
: >the archaeologist!
: Gosh, I thought you never asserted this sort of thing.  If so, how can
: this be your point?

Could your memory be that short, Greg? Weren't we talking very recently
about stuff being found by archaeologists and not published?

: >So, you can't have it both ways.
: >If you're looking for such a proof, then
: >_really look for it_
: Why don't YOU really look for it?  Odds are, you are funded as well -- if
: not better --than I am.

And where did you get _this_ from? Is this some conspiracy theory of
yours? I'm an independent researcher and writer, and certainly have no
surplus of funds.

The relevant part of Peter's old post follows.

[begin quote]

Subject:      Re: Smoking guns? Yes (or maybe NO)
From:         [23] (Peter van Rossum)
Date:         1996/12/10
Message-Id:   <[24]>


4. The Roman terra-cotta head
   Discussed in a TWO-PAGE article by Heine Geldern (1967), also in a
   TWO-PAGE article by the original excavator Jose Garcia Payon (1961)

[Yuri adds on June 7: I believe this chronology of Peter's is either not
quite correct, or incomplete. I have read somewhere recently that
Heine-Geldern learned about this find, got in touch with Payon, and
published the information about this find _against the will_ of Payon
originally. Later, Payon published it too, and confirmed the find. So
Heine-Geldern had to "prod him" into publishing. This matter is somewhat
tangential, and it would take me some time and effort to track down more
details about this chronology, but the source where I read about this was
quite reliable, as I remember.]

   This artifact, is a 2.0-2.5 CM. terra-cotta head purported to be of
   Roman style in a 12th century A.D. Mexican burial.

[CORRECTED MARCH 19, 2000: This artifact has been discussed a lot
recently in newsgroups. Peter's info was not correct here. The actual
date is 1476-1510 as Mr. Weller reminded me so helpfully. For more 
info, see, 

   This is the best candidate of the bunch because it was found during
   an actual archaeological excavation and the lead excavator says it
   was found in a good pre-columbian context.

   But I still have reservations because the artifact was recovered
   in the 1930s but Dr. Garcia Payon never wrote anything about it
   until 30 years later, and even then he only wrote the briefest of
   articles.  This makes it extremely difficult to judge the validity
   of the artifact. What was the size of the unit dug? By what levels
   was the unit dug?  Dr. Garcia Payon mentions that it was found
   under three later floor levels but since he hasn't published the
   materials we can't see the stratigraphic profiles.  The artifact
   in question only measures about 1 inch around (small), this increases
   the chances of problems.


Heine-Geldern, Robert
  1967 "A Roman Find from Pre-Columbian Mexico," Anthropological Journal
       of Canada, Vol. 5, No. 4, pp.21-22.

[end quote]

Also, I believe that the dating of this artifact was confirmed further.

So, here you are, Greg. You raised the question of these "smoking guns"
again, so you must be interested... And we have been through this in
detail. I gave Peter originally a whole list of such potential "smoking
guns" and from this list this one was the most solid.



Yuri Kuchinsky   | "Where there is the Tree of Knowledge, there
     -=-         | is always Paradise: so say the most ancient
 in Toronto      | and the most modern serpents."  F. Nietzsche
 ----- my webpage is for now at: [25] -----


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