Subject:      Re: trans-Pacific contacts
From:         yuku@io.org (Yuri Kuchinsky)
Date:         1996/08/13
Newsgroups:   alt.archaeology,sci.archaeology

ARTICLE 34 OF 49

This is the second part of my reply to the long post by Jeffrey. In the
first part I've pointed out some of the many errors that he made. Here are
some more corrections.

Jeffrey L Baker (jbaker@gas.uug.arizona.edu) wrote:
: On 10 Aug 1996, Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:

        ...

: > - metallurgy

: Wrong again. While metallurgy did exist in both the old and new
: world, the casting methods were different. The combination of
: metals used in the metallurgical practices was different as well.

Wrong again, Jeffrey. How wrong can you be...

I will begin by giving this ref. as a source for further reading. R. von
Heine-Geldern, AMERICAN METALLURGY AND THE OLD WORLD, in EARLY CHINESE ART
AND ITS POSSIBLE INFLUENCE IN THE PACIFIC BASIN, ed. Noel Barnard (Taipei,
Taiwan: Hsun-Mei Pub. Co., 1974). I mentioned before that Heine-Geldern is
an imprtant researcher in this area.

And here are the relevant parallels between the Old and the New world
metallurgy:

"First and foremost there was casting by the lost-wax (_cire perdue_)
method, appearing in Colima adn Colombia from -100 onwards, then in full
flower by +1200 in Peru. This was characteristic also of China..."
(Needham, TRANS-PACIFIC ECHOES, p. 58)

Needham gives the following list of other similar techniques:

-making alloys such as the _tumbaga_ mixture of gold and copper
-gilding, including
        -true gilding
        -adding a layer of gold foil to the surface
        -fusion gilding
-"Sheffield plate", i.e. the diffusion-bonding of silver and copper
-"surface enrichment"

(I remind for those who haven't followed this discussion that Needham was
a pre-eminent historian of science and technology.)

"All these were procedures characteristic of various parts of the Old
World" (p. 59)

The following are the parallels with the Japanese metallurgy:

-shakudo alloy (95% copper, 5% gold)
-shibuichi alloy (60% copper, 20% gold, 20% silver)

These appeared on the American mainland quite early, before the end of
the -1st millennium.

: >
: > ETHNO-BOTANY, ETHNO-ZOOLOGY AND ETHNO-HELMINTHOLOGY

: > There is plenty of evidence in this area, and plenty of literature
: > available and cited in the book.
: >
: > - sweet potato
: >       ...the transfer is accepted on all hands.

: and is generally believed to be a postcolumbian phenomenon!

This is "generally believed" only in the world of Jeffrey, surely...

: > Transmission of the following plants is seen as controversial, yet
: > a lot of evidence for this exists:
: >
: > - coconut palm
: > - calabash

: Both of these plants can survive quite long periods of time in salt
: water. The bottle gourd has been found in the new world in contexts
: dating back to 7000 b.c. There is no reason to argue for the transpacific
: contacts to explain these plants.

Many researchers still do in the case of the bottle gourd.

: I am also unaware of any evidence
: for the coconut in the prehispanic new world.

This is a true blooper, Jeffrey. Incorrect.

Now, coconut is the plant that is perhaps likely to propagate of its own
across the ocean. Bottle gourd is rather unlikely to do the same.

: > - the peanut

: Where in the precolumbian New World has this plant been found?

Jeffrey, you've outdone now even the amazing level of incompetence you've
set so far in your post!

The peanut was INDIGENOUS TO THE AMERICAS!

Duh!

Well, this really should be enough. I should try to be nice and spare
Jeffrey any further embarassment...

        ...

: You are rehashing old ideas that have been soundly refuted in the
: scientific literature. Try reading someone other than Needham or
: Campbell.

Jeffrey, really, I should recommend to you that you START READING
Needham and Campbell! Better late than never...

Cordially,

Yuri.