Subject:      Re: trans-Pacific contacts
From:         yuku@io.org (Yuri Kuchinsky)
Date:         1996/08/11
Newsgroups:   alt.archaeology,sci.archaeology

ARTICLE 38 OF 49

Jeffrey,

It does seem to me that you spoke too soon and rashly, without bothering
to take a look at the materials I cited. You have made many significant
errors and expressed many uninformed opinions in your post. I will not
even bother to identify all of them in this reply.

You should really take a look at your style of arguing. It is unduly
confrontational, and not very constructive.

Jeffrey L Baker ([9]jbaker@gas.uug.arizona.edu) wrote:
: On 10 Aug 1996, Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:

: > But I am already aware of other good sources for this.
: >
: > The case for trans-Pacific diffusion to the Americas has been made
: > by a number of scholars. Among them, Joseph Needham was one of the
: > leaders. The following is based on his, and Lu Gwei-Djen's, book
: > TRANS-PACIFIC ECHOES AND RESONANCES; LISTENING ONCE AGAIN, World
: > Scientific, 1985.

: Why are you continually citing the same two sources (Needham and Campbell)?

Because they are serious, respected and reliable scholars.

: Are these the only two authors you have ever read?

This is not a kind of comment that is likely to further constructive
dialogue. The answer is no.

: > I have read this book a few years ago.
: >
: > The basic observation to be made is that the case for trans-Pacific
: > influence is widely accepted by Asian, and especially by the Chinese
: > scholars. _There_ it is the _mainstream_ view. Also, the Europeans are
: > quite receptive to this view. In the Americas, there's plenty of
: > opposition.

: Which Chinese scholars advance this viewpoint. Though by no means an
: expert on Chinese historiography, I have read a great deal of literature
: on China. I have never seen this topic seriously discussed. Please
: provide names other than Needham or Gwei-Djen!

I think you are being lazy. As I said, Needham's book lists 20 pages of
bibliography, many of them by Chinese authors. So go and take a look. The
matter of the theory of trans-Pacific contacts being much more widely
accepted among Chinese scholars is not in doubt. The fact that you are
unaware of this indicates your general level of awareness of the state of
the debate in this area.

        ...

: > RECORDING AND WRITING (p. 15)
: >
: >       That the pictographic and ideographic principle of the
: >       scripts of the Meso-American peoples evoked the
: >       parallels of the Old World, has been appreciated for
: >       nearly two centuries.

        ...

: Maya is very distinct from either Chinese or Japanese. Any grade schooler
: would be able to differentiate the Maya writing system from Chinese
: or Japanese.

This earth shaking revelation may be helpful for grade schoolers. I think
you would do well to respect the intelligence of this audience. Myself, I
have studied the Chinese, and have been studying the matter of the Mayan
writings for a while, thank you.

: > ARTISTIC ELEMENTS; ART, ARCHITECTURE AND MUSIC
: >
: > A great wealth of evidence is provided here, and in the following
: > chapters.

: Such as?

Such as are presented in the book I cite. I've been doing plenty already
(and without any help from anyone) to present here the evidence in this
area. Do you expect me to type in the whole book for you?

: > In this chapter, the following items are very relevant, and are
: > carefully analyzed with many references given:
: >
: > - the spear-thrower
: > - the invention of the wheel
: > - the bow-drill
: > - techniques associated with the military art
: > - the blow gun
: > - concave mirrors
: > - suspension bridge
: > - adobe brick
: > - irrigation (much material looked at)

: The presence of these technologies hardly constitutes evidence for
: diffusion.

Strange comment. So what is this evidence for then?
        ...
: The irrigation systems of Mexico and China are vastly different.

Needham presents some evidence for similarities in dam-building
technologies.

: Irrigation is unknown among the Olmec! If there farming systems
: are related why are the crop plants known in precolumbian Mesoamerica
: unknown in precolumbian China, and vice versa.

I am talking about plant transmission later. So why do you object even
before you read to the end of my post? This is what I call unnecessary
confrontationality.

: > - ceramics (of course)

: How many times do we have to point out that there is no evidence of
: any relationship between the ceramics Japan and those of the New
: World.

Incorrect.

The evidence exists. Yet, perhaps, it is not conclusive in and of itself.

: > - fibre-technology
: the fibers used in the new world are unrelated to those used in the
: old world.

You are uninformed and widely off the mark.

Here are the quotes from Needham's book:

"It is in the bark-cloth (tapa) complex that we meet with perhaps the MOST
OUTSTANDING EXAMPLE OF A PAN-PACIFIC DESTRIBUTION, linking the Americas
with Oceania and Asia; though the blow-gun complex runs it close
[capitalization mine]. The technique ... is involved and rather
sophisticated, hence extremely collocative...." (p. 51) [references are
given in a footnote]

"Tolstoy could distinguish 121 distinct traits in this complex, out which
he found that 92 (or 76%) were shared by South-east Asia and
Meso-America, while 44 were not really necessary, and 37 were redundant,
i.e. optional. ... There is now a general conviction, expressed for
example by Kelley, and Meggers, that the distribution of the bark-cloth
technique cannot be understood without ADMITTING TRANS-PACIFIC CONTACT."
(p. 52)

: The new world domesticatd cotton is not closely related to
: domesticated old world cotton. They have a completely different number of
: chromosomes.

Thank you for stating the obvious. But Needham has a good discussion of
this matter.

: > - Tyrian purple
: >       Tyrian purple of the ancients was also known and
: >       utilized in the Americas.

: Which new world cultures utilized tyrian purple?

The Incas, and also the Aztecs. Again, from Needham:

"The evidence points clearly to its being pre-Columbian, and this was
accepted by Thompson. (J. Thompson, MEXICO BEFORE CORTES, 1933)" (p. 53)

: > - kava-complex (alcoholic beverage)
: The alcoholic beverages in the Old World are made from Old World crops,
: those in the New World are made from New World crops.

Thank you for another not very helpful statement of the obvious.

: There are very few in the New World.

Few of what?

: > - distillation methods
: >       ... traditional distillation methods of Mexico were East
: >       Asian and not Hellenistic; indeed we have not so far
: >       seen this referred to by any anthropologists.

: Distillation was unkown in precolumbian Mexico!! It was introduced
: to Mexico by the Spaniards!

Most likely you are incorrect on this.

Needham discusses distillation methods used by Meso-Americans, concludes
that these methods are of East Asian type, and says:

"There has been some argument, of course, as to whether any this pre-dated
the Spanish and Philippine influence, but there is a very early edict of +
1529 prohibiting the distillation of maguey pulque, and this surely points
to a pre-Columbian origin." (p. 57)

This post is long enough already, but many of your further comments about
evidence from ethno-botany strike me as singularly uninformed. I will
return to this later.

Respectfully,

Yuri.